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5 Questions on Entrepreneurs and Startups with Sharon Wienbar (Scale Venture Partners)

May 20, 2013 by orricktotalaccess

Recently, one of our partners, Greg Heibel, sat down with Sharon Wienbar from Scale Venture Partners for a no-frills conversation about investors and entrepreneurs. Aside from the fact that we now know Sharon would choose a beach over mountains any day of the year, she shared some really great nuggets of information about what exactly it is that investors think about when meeting with entrepreneurs or figuring out whether they want to place a bet on a particular kind of team. Here are some of the gold nuggets from the interview.

Greg: What is it that makes you take a meeting with an entrepreneur?

Sharon: Well, there’s a couple things, but the first is usually that the entrepreneur is operating in a market that we’re interested in. So it’s a place that I want to understand; I want to understand what he or she is doing. It can really help when the entrepreneur either has a background in the space or has been introduced by somebody we know, but I’m very unlikely to take a meeting with somebody who’s in a market that we’re just not going to invest in, because that would waste that person’s time.

Greg: What does it mean to be scaling?

Sharon: So, to be a scaling company means you’ve achieved the product market fit, which could sometimes take just a couple of months, sometimes a couple of years, to get the product right for what the market is looking for. [It also means that] you’ve found a sales channel that is working. And this is one of the things that we’re maniacal about is tense, right? It is working means this quarter you’re selling more than last quarter. It doesn’t mean that you’re doing tens of millions of dollars in revenue. We’ve invested in companies that have been in revenue, even three months. But, period on period the business is growing. You’ve found a way that is working to reach your customers and you want to raise capital to grow that dramatically.

Greg: When you’re looking at a company, what’s more important to you? The team or the technology?

For the rest of the interview, you can watch the interview below.

 

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Startups – How the Right Team Can Make or Break You

May 16, 2013 by orricktotalaccess

Yesterday, we hosted our very first women entrepreneurial session, powered by women for women.  With no surprise, it was so inspiring to watch the women entrepreneurs mind share and help one another in such an honest and open setting.  There was an instant connection between them all…entrepreneurs wanting to take the world by storm and willing to help one another get there.  The fierce leader of the pack was our guest speaker, Dianna Mullins from Glam Media.  Dianna is a serial entrepreneur herself, starting her first company before she could even drive a car.  The topics and issues that surrounded yesterday’s discussions included building a team at an early stage, how to hire the right people, retention, and finding the right group of advisors and investors.   Here were some of the highlights from Dianna and the group:

  1. Before you do anything,  it’s important to know who your team is (regardless of it being one, five or six members, etc.).  As a founder, it’s important to figure out what value you or the company will add to each individual in your team and vice versa. This will ensure that everyone has something to bring to the table and the goals and vision are the same across the board.

  2. Your team is the core of your company.  Whether it is the admin or the engineer, or the temp or the perm hire, everyone should be treated equally.  This will increase the liklihood of happy employees and longevity of a company.

  3. The Startup Wiggle – trying different levers to see which one takes.  Usually implemented at most early stage companies.  When building your team, find the individuals who are resilient and motivated to do the startup wiggle.  Choose people who have creativity, courage, and conviction.  You want someone who will challenge you, but also a balance so they’re not constantly opposing you and your visions.

  4. Don’t fear failure.

  5. When hiring, look for attitude, tone, and skill.  You want to make sure their attitude is the right fit, their tone is respectful and appropriate, and they have the skill set your company needs.

  6. Know who you are.  You have to know who you are as an individual, a company, and a founding team.  If you can’t answer this, it will make it very tough (when hiring) for you to step into the other person’s shoe and determine whether it is mutually beneficial for him/her and your team.

  7. Letting go of someone from your founding team can feel like a divorce.  So make sure you put a lot of thought and effort into who you are hiring.

  8. Advisors will give you connections to an area you don’t have much knowledge or understanding in.  If you have someone in mind to play an advisory role, don’t call them one right off the bat.  Build a relationship and see if they’ll offer you advice or help you out with a project.  Some of the best advisors never have the official advisor title.  In finding the right advisor?  It’s like courting, you just know.

  9. Figure out your plan, execute, check it, and repeat. Focus on the business first and then everything else will fall into place (fundraising, etc.).

  10. In sharing and selling your vision during the early days, you want to be like Tom Sawyer and get people to help you paint the fence.  It’s sometimes boring as hell, but you want to be the first one who gets the party started.

Participating Companies:

BabyList - a baby registry that helps new moms discover, share and buy the things they need for their baby.

CaptureProof - creating and implementing innovative technologies that allow patients and practitioner to capture, share, search and analyze pertinent media.

Clever Girls Collective - a technology-driven social media company connecting  brands with social influencers while offering social influencers exciting content monetization.

KidAdmit - apply to multiple preschools and manage the admissions process in one place.

LocoMotive Labs - assistive and play-based learning applications to empower kids with special needs to be independent learners.

LookMazing - a fashion social network that rewards individuals for transforming outfit photos into shoppable looks.

Share Some Style - a community marketplace that connects people who need fashion advice with local stylists.

Womens session 1

“You have to be naive to do what we do or else you wouldn’t do it.”
~ Dianna Mullins, Glam Media

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Investor Coaching Session with Maveron

May 15, 2013 by orricktotalaccess

maveron

We’re hosting another coaching session for the month of May..this time with Rebecca Kaden from Maveron!  

As usual, we only have a few seats so if you’re interested, send over your executive summary to Joyce Chuang at jchuang@orrick.com for consideration.  

Your company must be in the following industries to  be considered: consumer, mobile, media.

Additional details about the event below:

  • Please send your ONE PAGE executive summary to Joyce Chuang by Friday, May 24, 2013 by 12:00 pm PST. 
  • We will notify you by Tuesday, May 28, as to whether or not you have been selected to attend.
  • Once selected, you will be assigned a 30-minute time slot between 1:00 pm – 4:00 pm. Each time slot consists of 5 mintues to present your company and 25 minutes for Q&A – if you have questions for the investor, please prepare them in advance.
  • Please feel free to bring your own laptop for brief demos. Wireless internet will be provided in the room.

You’ll be meeting with:

  • Rebecca Kaden, Senior Associate
  • Date: Thursday, May 30, 2013
  • Time and Location: From 1:00 pm – 4:00 pm at Orrick’s San Francisco office

Executive summaries are due by: Friday, May 24, 2013 by 12:00 pm PST

Please contact Joyce Chuang if you have any questions.

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What You Need to Know About Board Meetings

May 2, 2013 by orricktotalaccess

We recently hosted an event focused on board meetings and invited panelists from the company and investor side to talk about their personal experiences in dealing with this topic. The panelists shared everything from choosing board members to what a dysfunctional board member looks like.  The panelists included Dan Levin from Box, Jules Maltz from Institutional Venture Partners, Gary Swart at oDesk, Geoff Tate previously at Rambus, and Sharon Wienbar from Scale Venture Partners.  The moderator for this event was our very own Greg Heibel.  Here are some key takeaways from the event and what every entrepreneur should know to ensure the successful management and implementation of your board and the meetings.

How do you pick a board member and what should the composition be?

While most of the time a board member will be an investor, you have to view them as a source of advice and counsel first, money should be second. Most people have it backwards and think that you should take the money first, add the investor to the board, and then worry about all else later. This is usually a recipe for disaster and irritation in the long run. When thinking about the composition, it is important to understand that you essentially have three different types of people on your board: executives, investors, and independent members. You may not be able to necessarily choose your investors, but the other two are completely within your control and you should exercise that control in a thoughtful and tactical manner. If you are able to select your board member, you should try and round out your board with people who have a different skill sets from you. Much like seeking out members of your team who complement your skills, the same can be said for your board members. Nevertheless, the universal truth to bringing something onto your team is to make sure that personal characteristics are aligned, the person is motivated, and has the skills and knowledge. As Gary Swart from oDesk said, “personal characteristics are things you can’t change. You can teach a chicken to climb a tree, but you’re better off getting a squirrel in the first place.”

What is the ideal number of board members?

There is no hard and fast rule for this, it really depends on what you need and how productive the members are to the company. The general consensus from the panel seemed to be five to seven, but keeping in mind that your board composition does not have to fall within those numbers. You could have two, you could have 10, as long as all members are contributing in a productive and efficient manner, the numbers really depend on what you’re comfortable with. Having said that, too many board members can make it tough for decision making and getting things done, whereas having too few, can also leave you with limited perspective. “Early in the company’s career, smaller is better” says Dan Levin from Box. “Every time you need to get something done, you’re going to need to get everybody to sign a piece of paper. It’s harder to get a large group of people together.”

Advisors and observers, should you have them?

Advisors are those who are there to mentor and help guide you as you develop, grow your company, and beyond. These people are not necessarily your board members and don’t always hold a board seat, but they act as additional individuals who are advocates of your company and either have the experience or network to take your company to the next level. An observer is someone who is an additive to the room, but doesn’t generally sit on a committee or have voting rights. There may be instances where there certain venture funds have the right to designate an observer, but they’re rarely exercised. Observers can be great if they have limited involvement in board meeting conversations, but have value that they can bring to the table. Again, much like how many members you should have on your board, there is no definite number as to the number of advisors or observers you should have. As long as quality is there, the quantity is up to you and what you feel most comfortable with.

What should be presented at a board meeting?

A few days in advance of your board meeting, you should be sending your decks to those who are participating. A week is usually ideal. It is best that all parties receive the information they will be reviewing, prior to the board meeting so that you can make the best use of time. Many entrepreneurs think that the deck they present needs to be comprehensive and immaculate, when in reality, it shouldn’t be. This should be the easiest material to produce because the information you include, should already be logged and updated on a regular basis. You shouldn’t need to re-create anything. As Dan said, your operations review is where things get created because that’s where you run the business. You should essentially be providing your board members with your operations review along with a few other additional pieces of information such as your financials, current key issues or strategies, followed by an administrative updates.

Given all this, keep in mind that the board is not there to run your meetings or your company. That is the job of the CEO. At the end of the day, if you are deferring to your board for major decisions, something is wrong. These are just some helpful tips as you think about putting together your board.   You can click here to see the full video of our panel event, or here for a one-on-one interview with Gary Swart, and here for the interview with Sharon Wienbar.

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Why Fundraising is Like Rock Climbing

April 22, 2013 by orricktotalaccess

By: Tracy Lawrence (CEO & Co-Founder of Chewse)

Like a good SF resident, my friend Francis Pedraza took me and my co-founder on a rock climb when we visited from LA.

Good thing: I’m ambitious, I haven’t climbed before, and I have a hunger for adventure.

Unfortunately: I have weak upper body strength, I’m terrified of heights, and I was wearing jeggings.

With the odds against me, did I do the logical thing and bow out gracefully? Hardly. An hour later, I was near the top of this immense rock wall, sweating balls, with Francis patiently belaying me below.

Welcome to fundraising, my friends.

fundraise-as-a-rock-climb-1

Here’s the deal: hearing the story about how entrepreneurs raise their round should not be the blueprint for how you bring your round together. There are some basic principles of how your round could come together, and it might make you feel more comfortable to map out. At the end of the day, just accept that as a first-time entrepreneur you can’t strategize how money is going to come together.

Raising Money in 3 Parts

I credit this philosophy with a wonderful entrepreneur who came out of the TechStars accelerator, which teaches that most rounds are raised in 3 parts:

  1. 1st Tranche: The Beginner’s Ledge
    • This looks easy, but tends to be the hardest piece of the raise. Getting that first investor to look around the room, see no one else vouching on your behalf, and then writing you a check in spite of it — that is ridiculously difficult. It looks like an easy ledge to get you to the promised land, but you’ve still got quite an initial sprint to clear it.
    • These investors are typically angels that put in smaller $5k – $25k checks. You let them in to build momentum in the round, even in those checks aren’t substantial.
    • Full Disclosure: It took me 6 months before I landed our first investor. And boy did we land a key one — thank you, 500 Startups! Once we had them on board, we raised an additional $50k that month.
  2. 2nd Tranche: No-Man’s Land
    • This is where you start to transition to bigger checks, better-known angels, and even micro-VCs. The waiting period can often be a little longer, but worth it. These guys and gals are generally more strategic, they focus heavily on the team, but they needed to see social proof of other investors before writing their own check.
    • The rock wall at this point looks sparse. Rocks are either level with your feet (making you feel like your moving sideways instead of upwards) or far out of reach. Hold out for those farther boulders — they will catapult you to the final tranche.
    • We spent months floating in this period. Having Demo Day at 500 Startups helped push some of the bigger players in our round because of the forcing function, which was immensely helpful — we closed 25% of our round in the 48 hours before Demo Day.
  3. 3rd Tranche: Hundreds of Foot Holds
    • Once you get those strategic names in your round and roughly 1/2 to 3/4 of the round committed, things get a ton easier. The fundraising game starts to become more inbound, leads close quicker, and investors that may have passed or been non-responsive before are now returning to set up a call.
    • Boulders and footholds are plentiful at this part of the rockwall. With the right amount of boost, you’ll reach the top in no time.
    • You hold the most leverage at this piece to be choosey with your investors. I’d argue you should always be testing how investors add value to your round.

Have a belayer you trust

There’s a rock climbing technique called “belaying” that requires a second person on the ground, wearing a harness, who controls the slack and friction on the rope to make sure the climber doesn’t fall too far. That support person, the belayer, is your absolute anchor.

As a first-time fundraiser, my lawyer was my belayer (my co-founder was my moral support cheering from the stands). I can’t tell you how many times I asked Gaurav all the questions that I felt too dumb to ask investors. He was calm, patient, and strategic. I trust him, and he has the informed experience that comes with seeing seed-stage deals consistently.

The decisions we came to together put my company in a strong position for success — not only helping me scale this wall, but he’ll definitely be my partner for future climbs. Find a lawyer you trust. I’m happy to refer you to ours :)

Don’t innovate on your financing, innovate on your business.

I was tempted to try to try to think of new, creative, quick ways to raise money — to effectively “outsmart” the round. But doing this is not only a complete waste of time, but it could be a red flag to established investors who would be stellar to bring onto your round. I would recommend using the Y-C standard termsheets and not spending more time tricking out your docs.

It might be helpful to set expectations for your round based on what others have done. Our law firm, Silicon Legal Strategy, released a Seed Financing Report this month that would have helped me understand what I was getting into.

Understanding your audience is key, so I would get familiar with the economics of angel investing. You’d be surprised how easily someone can “drop” a $50k check, unless you understand how it fits into their portfolio theory. Don’t let it surprise you when a 30-minute cup of coffee translates into six figures of investment.

“I knew you wouldn’t give up.”

Francis will probably laugh remembering this story. I was perched near the top of that wall for a while trying to overcome the sheer exhaustion of getting to that point. But some odd mixture of pride and ambition forced me to the top, and I definitely refused to give up (as Francis pointed out when I was finally roped back down, happily panting and exhausted).

Fundraising requires that same tenacity. I hope your journey is shorter than mine.

Article originally posted here.

tracyTracy Lawrence is the CEO and co-founder of Chewse, the marketplace helping offices find the best catered meals. After eating her way through USC and being awarded Entrepreneur of the Year, she took her startup to San Francisco and the 500 Startups incubator. When not feverishly working, she indulges an unhealthy love of farmers markets, pita, hummus, and running. She loves helping and mentoring entrepreneurs that are female, from Los Angeles, and/or in food tech, so hit her up on twitter @chewishgirl!

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The New Wave of IPOs; Mobile, B2B, and Vertically Focused Startups

April 8, 2013 by orricktotalaccess

By: Jindou Lee (CEO of Happy Inspector)

Recently, I read an article written by the CEO of Yammer, David Sacks, where he declared the death of Silicon Valley. His post was quickly countered by heavyweights Andreessen Horowitz’s Marc Andreessen and GRP Partners’ David Suster. Their argument was that as long as there is human creativity, “opportunities will be endless”. Although I am a fan of Mr. Sacks, and hope to be as good a CEO as he is, I’m against him on this one.

Sure, the large gorillas of the current era such as Yammer, Salesforce, Zynga, Atlassian all have money and power now, but once upon a time they were startups as well. What changed? They all disrupted their domain by adopting and shaping the behaviour of a changing world. The shift from boxed software to SaaS killed the incumbents. Products could be shipped weekly, not yearly. Purchasing moved from the top down approach to the bottom up trojan horse approach. The enterprise became consumerized, and the world became social thanks to Facebook and LinkedIn.

Where is the world heading?

If I was a gambling man, I would put my money on mobile. Mobile in itself is such a vague term. It’s almost like going to Vegas and saying, put it all on black! I want to go one step further and actually predict what the next 7 years of technology will look like.

I’ll put my chips on companies that look like this: Mobile first, cloud enabled, B2B/enterprise, MAaaS, vertically focused.

Why mobile first?

Mary Meeker and Liang Wu from KPCB prepared a presentation about the adoption of mobile. Looking at the trends it’s scary to think that the adoption of mobile is 10x the speed at which PCs were adopted in the 80s. That’s a phenomenal rate. The engagement and usage on the device is another factor why mobile cannot be ignored.

While startups have learned to build web first businesses over the last 7 years, we are in an era where everyone is still learning how to build mobile first businesses. This means that larger businesses will have to acqui-hire or change their business models to adapt to the new environment. If they acqui-hire too early, then they run the risk of not letting the acquired team go deep enough to learn how to build and understand the model. And if they change business models this will typically mean cannibalising existing parts of their business and impacting revenues. This is the opportunity for disruption.

However, it does not make sense for every startup to adopt a mobile first strategy and it depends largely on whether there is an intrinsic need to use the capabilities of mobile technology for their chosen market. This is where startups (and investors) have to really question the validity of a mobile first strategy.

What’s in the cloud?

The key ingredient that is needed for disruption is the cloud. Building a sustainable business that sells B2B (and enterprise) will almost need to have the cloud to tie everything together. For your customers, it won’t be about using their iPhone, it’ll be about having access to “my” data on any device (iPhone/iPad/iPad mini/Android/Windows tablet/Whatever is beyond). The user experience on the device has to be amazing, but the cloud is needed to do a lot of the heavy lifting.

The deadpool of consumer and the rebirth of B2B/enterprise

As more and more consumer startups die over time, this signals some great and not so great news for B2B startups. Great because the techniques, features and acquisition strategies involved with building successful consumer apps will be key to “innovating on the distribution model” (David Sacks) when dealing with B2B and enterprise.

Yammer, Salesforce, Atlassian all changed the game when they caught on the wave of disrupting an organisation from the bottom up and creating a groundswell of “low-level” users to get buy-in from up the food chain. When it comes to mobile, there is another change looming on the horizon. It’s the whole notion of combining business models like freemium, discovery on App stores, organisational changes such as BYOD (Bring your own devices) and applying them to the enterprise. We’ve seen it first-hand where members of the executive team, equipped with their very own iPads/iPhones would download apps themselves and then act as the champion to their team. This is a major shift in the landscape.

B2B in my opinion has always been sexy. (Ask Dave McClure)

It’s now much sexier due to the hype around consumer startups dying. B2B, however, is a much trickier landscape to navigate because there are so many more layers of complexity and teams have to be much more diverse and well rounded than the conventional hacker and hustler. It requires domain knowledge, understanding of organisational buying behaviour, exceptional product development delivery, smart marketing and a strong core group of people to uphold and drive the vision of the company year over year.

SaaS Enterprise == Enterprise MAaaS

Today, Apple has educated the consumer and established an expectation of the ninety-nine cent economy. In the enterprise, SaaS has evolved to be the currency of choice for software. Over time, as the market matures, we will see a time where a new currency will evolve; MAaaS (Mobile Apps as a service). MAaaS will be the currency of choice as businesses and enterprise learn that although their usage will be on a consumer level, they will need the safety net that a subscription service offers businesses. The one off app costs will be superseded by a subscription economy as the market changes their perspective on how they should be paying for their consumption of mobile apps.

Vertical is the new Horizontal

In the last 7 years we’ve seen some really great businesses that have been built and funded on the premise of being platforms and being horizontally focused. This won’t work for mobile first businesses. First, there are already incumbents that have more money and a monopoly on market share in their industry. Second, when you try to speak to everyone, you end up speaking to no one; Marketing and Psychology 101. Third, users consumption on mobile is very different to the web. Apps are typically purpose built for specific tasks or functions. Fourth, the cost per acquisition for targeting customer in a specific vertical is much less than going broad and targeting everyone.

He who knows which battle he should engage in and which he should avoid, will win. ~ Sun Tze

I’m not advocating to think small. I’m advocating to think big but act small. In the long term business can look to go either horizontal or vertical. For example, in the medical industry you can build a platform for doctors or build deep tools for medical on mobile. But in the short term, there is a need to focus on one specific niche at a time. This is what Sun Tze would call “choosing your battlefield” and by focusing on building better solutions for a targeted group of customers, a tiny startup can beat the large 500-pound gorillas at their game.

What are some examples?

There are a quite a few companies that fit the profile above. Notably I like what Vend, Doximity, Plangrid and Dr. Chrono are doing in their specific niches. They are all run by amazing teams, backed by great investors and are executing on their vision amazingly well.

Like all giant companies that have gone IPO, young startups need to start from somewhere. And it’s important for investors to trust the team and believe in the long term vision of the founders. The companies will evolve, the product range will expand and new opportunities will appear. So it’s imperative to pick a team that’s smart, hungry and passionate about figuring out how to build the next big thing.

Here’s to the next 7 years.

Jindou

Jindou Lee is the co-founder and CEO of Happy Inspector; making inspections paperless. His previous life includes being a UX designer at Midway Games, semi-pro soccer player, two previous tech exits and a ton of other failed businesses

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Channeling the Tech Swagger

March 28, 2013 by orricktotalaccess

By: Stefanos Missailidis (Co-Founder at Fiestah)

images

Tech swagger, also known as geek confidence, is essential in the startup world. Let’s pause and think of the arrant audacity it takes to be a founder. To abandon convention and dedicate your mental, physical and financial resources to a venture that is not guaranteed to be profitable or successful by any means. There’s a reason the tech world is so tight knit. Like misery, crazy loves company. So why do it? There are so many reasons, the thrill of the journey, the feeling when you do get there. So what does it take to pull it off? Tech swagger. Why tech swagger, why not use the word confidence? “Swagger” unlike “confidence” has a momentum already charged within the word. There’s something errant about it that is perfectly in tune with the rogue nature of the startup world and culture. You channel tech swagger by….

Dressing the part. This may seems ridiculous in a world whose supreme king is hoodied Zuckerberg, but even his choice of clothes are a deliberate power play. When Facebook was in genesis, the business world was still ruled by powerheads donning thousand dollar suits, always flaunting their power by flashing their material wealth. Zuckerberg differentiated himself by wearing hoodies, saying that he doesn’t need to be flashy to be or be perceived as successful. Dress the way you want to be perceived. Be deliberate in the way you dress. For some this is jeans and a t-shirt. For others, it’s wearing suspenders and a bow tie. You can even make the way you dress an extension of your branding campaign like this guy. But most importantly in your worst days as a founder (and trust me, the journey is filled with many of those) the way you dress, your founder “uniform,” is a constant reminder of who you are and why you are subsisting on mac and cheese for the next six months to build the next Instagram.

Videotaping and analyzing your pitch, yourself. As a founder navigating the tricky waters of the startup world, somebody is always watching. Whether it is the investors at your next pitch event or the consumers you want to reach, your nonverbal communication is important. You already know to videotape yourself giving a professional pitch. But go farther. Videotape yourself when you’re walking. Many people judge you on the way you walk, especially when you’re entering a room full of people you need to wow for the first time. Videotape yourself when you’re eating. At networking events can you come across as professional while you’re eating or are you that guy who spits meatballs into everyone’s eyes? This may seem like a Beyonce kind of obsessiveness, but there’s a reason she is one of the few pop artists in full command of her media narrative. Like Beyonce, you need to be in charge of your media narrative as well.

Developing your brand of charisma. The key word here is “your.” Take notes from the masters, but don’t copy them. As a founder, you need to come across as organic, not forced. And while you should rehearse conversations, pitches and presentations, it shouldn’t look prepared.

Becoming a Super Networker. No good startup story starts with, “I was sitting at home in my underwear, working my way through the third season of “Breaking Bad” when this amazing thing happened.” For opportunities to open up, you need to get out there and network.

Having the Swag, always being prepared. Swag also refers to the merchandise your startup hands out for free to potential consumers like buttons, t-shirts, sunglasses, etc. For the purposes of this article, swag refers to your business card and/or your startup’s flyer. These should always be on you, because you never know who you are going to meet in that 10 second elevator ride. You never know who is going to be in the music section at Barnes and Noble. You never know, so always be prepared.

stefanos-missailidisStefanos Missailidis is a Co-Founder at Fiestah. He’s a data freak, old school developer, and designer in training. When not working on Fiestah, he spends his time playing soccer, practicing yoga, and killing WODs at Crossfit. Before founding Fiestah, he worked as a Consultant at Accenture for 4 years.

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